I'd like to bring this topic back to life to address a point that was never fully addressed.
Prestige and Post-Prestige GP. I've never liked (and in fact thought it was different back when we first changed, which led to some misunderstandings and miscommunication on my end) that we made that GP into its own mini milestone.
1. It breaks the flow of a milestone. Most Prestige and Post-Prestige arcs are, by their very nature, incredibly important to the overall growth of a character, and can either be in the middle or near the end of a milestone on their own. It can utterly destroy a much more valuable milestone if you suddenly can no longer get graded on those threads. At best you include them and subtract 500 or 1000 GP from the milestone total. 2. I don't see this as double-dipping. Base GP is, in essence, a metric and reward for excellent storytelling and character development as you finish chapters in your character's life. The GP that you get from Prestige and Post-Prestige was always, in my mind, justified IC as the boost of power your character gets from achieving a new plane of existence. OOC, yeah it can be termed a reward for getting there and a bit of a bonus so that you can buy all that fancy shit you just got access to in order to facilitate more roleplaying using those new abilities. 3. The only real reason I can see for keeping that GP in base GP is that it prevents GP inflation by lowering what you can get from milestones. It's not more organized there (we put LC GP into earned anyways, plot GP went into earned, missions, etc). 4. By opinion, it encourages gaming the system if you understand it. It encourages milestoning early, before you Prestige (which makes no sense in the context of a milestone, which will often include Prestige either as its capstone or towards the end) which weakens your story. That is, technically, offset by having a weaker milestone mean less GP, and if I remember correctly it was discussed that if that occurred the GP from Prestige should be removed. Which is silly, and I'm decently certain did not happen in practice.
Points 2-4 are significantly more opinion than anything else, point one stems from my time as staff. So let's round it out with a fifth point which is less opinionated.
5. Pointlessly complex rules make for headaches.
Slam Prestige and Post-Prestige GP bonus back into earned. It removes the problem from milestones where you actually have to be on watch for that, makes for stronger milestones, evens the playing field, and makes for easier grading.
However, I'm actually going to agree with Jian. I don't enjoy the initial GP you get being moved to Earned after 1,500. Part of the point behind having it be base was so that someone with a poor or average application could catch up to someone who made a god-tier application by getting involved with the community and creating a rocking story. They weren't penalized for not being great at applications or not wanting to spend the time on it, they could easily make that GP up in other ways. Of course, making a rocking app is still in your advantage- starting from, say, 2,500 is always better than starting at 1,500. Doing it this way means that someone who's not good at apps will always start behind, and stay behind (unless they're post-bandit Jian) with nothing to help them catch up.
Also, I'll be honest. It's going to be really weird putting up a milestone here soon for 3,500 instead of 4,500. It actually feels like I'm cheating and gaming the system because my base GP is going to be so much lower. Sure, that's because I started with 2,500 and I've only done one milestone, but still. Not that I don't mind the GP but...I don't like it. I'm aware that's opinion, but I'm just not comfortable with the feeling.
I believe the nature of the (post-)prestige bonus is currently being handled as a result of my final milestone which is what's causing the delay in processing it, but I agree p much with everything you said on the subject and I'm fairly certain I've stated it in similar terms elsewhere.
Last Edit: Nov 9, 2015 15:55:37 GMT -5 by Knowledge
Okay yeah that's a valid point. It's definitely not usual to have...uh...somewhere around 55 or so threads that have been to be milestoned.
But still. Between these two changes, assuming we do move the Prestige bonus over, I'm shifting 1,500 GP to earned. That feels very, very strange to suddenly go from 4,500 to 3,000, regardless of that.
That said. We talked a bit off the forum and I can see the appeal of having a single starting point for everyone on base GP. I'm still not totally happy with it but I understand it.
Post by Consequence on Nov 9, 2015 16:49:44 GMT -5
If there's something wrong with the way Milestones work or are utilized that you could tell me that would highlight why you've only done one, I'd love to hear it. If you just kind of 'don't do them' then I don't really know what to say.
You = a general 'you' for anyone with a thoughtful opinion on the subject.
Nothing really wrong with the way they're done. I just waited until all of the threads were done before trying to do my last one. But that turned into, "But I have all of these posts to do" and I kept putting it off, and putting it off...
One thing that I do which is unusual is organize far bigger arcs than the norm. All of my milestones thus far have been upwards of 20 threads, my smallest being 21. Which is partly because I prefer to drag out the character development to make it more realistic to me. So the big problems he deals with might be resolved in those 20+ threads, but it's only at the end that he takes care of it and really finishes out what I see as an arc. But that's a lot of work to write in a milestone, and procrastination is definitely a thing. Especially when I feel like I need to post. So, nothing really wrong with milestones, just the way I do them.
Throwing my two cents into the ring as I've only done 3 milestones myself-- and this is because I don't have a good understanding of what should qualify as a Milestone/when you should consider doing one and why they're necessary at all if you get "bonus" GP for successfully ranking up to the next tier of power (i.e. going from first release to second, from second to third, etc) when those in of themselves are treated as milestone events in your character's history here on the site.
I'm also with Tak in that I tend to structure my character's story into 'arcs', and that may have something to do with it. (1 Arc = Level up, or so I try to schedule it anyways. May be more appropriate to label them 'seasons' instead of arcs.)
Also do agree with the whole "you can't use x for your Milestone if you've used it for your Request for Second Power/Prestige" breaking the 'flow' of development arcs.
EDIT: And to head off the snarky horseshit from someone, be it Tokiyo or Robert; Takua has me beat by something along the lines of 20-23 threads written total, so I don't even want to hear it outta you.
Post by Consequence on Nov 14, 2015 10:24:40 GMT -5
So, with Tova being slowly consumed by viruses I mine as well comment on this to keep things moving.
All four of us Staffites seem to agree; the "Rank up bonus" should be removed from Base GP, and made as a separate reward under Earned.
The only way that makes sense to handle in the future, from a staff perspective, is that we will be reviewing the Request as a milestone and coming to an agreement on the value, and granting that as part of the process. So, here's a "Become prestige flowchart" that'll either hopelessly confuse you, or explain it concisely.
>Player submits Request for Prestige, which includes their full Prestige arc.
>Player indicates if they would like this to be a milestone or not; will add this to request form.
>Staff reviews per normal judgment
>If player said "Yes" to Milestone; As part of review, Milestone is evaluated and GP awarded by staff.
>Staff member recommends pass/fail, and if "Yes", also GP amount.
>Player collects their Yes, receives Milestone amount, and is able to claim +500 to Earned as a bonus for ranking up. --In the event of Post-Prestige, this bonus is +1,000--
EDIT // To be clear; you can choose to NOT get a Milestone out of your Prestige. You would do this if you want to claim an even larger, overall arc that has threads in it beyond just your Prestige Arc activity. I think the obvious caveat here is that you are courting a large risk by not capitalizing on the emotional impact of your Prestige moment, but that's your choice to make and your risk to take. // END EDIT
So, then, the question becomes what do "old" characters do? We have a handful of Prestige characters effected by this, and even 3 post-prestige!
I'm open to ideas here, but I am thinking that you're completely free to assume that your Prestige arc was a 500 GP milestone if you want to. No sense rocking the boat and making this really complicated.
If you don't want to, the elephant here is having to unravel storylines previously used or since used. However, the vast majority of currently active Prestige players are "recent", who have not complete much for arcs beyond becoming Prestige. I think the Post-Prestige folks are far more interesting cases. Paks is the only one of you three to heavily used the Milestone system, so we can likely address each of you privately.
If I may, wouldn't a slightly less convoluted way of phrasing this be the following?
When you apply for prestige or post-prestige, you are--in the event of it being approved--given either 500 or 1,000 non-Base GP. In addition to this, you can choose whether or not you want the request to be regarded as a milestone, the appropriate value of which is determined by the reviewers. If you want it to be considered a milestone, the threads you reference in the request will be given milestone treatment, and if not, you are free to use those threads as part of a larger milestone.
In essence, treat it as a "if you're up to date on your milestones, say so and we'll treat this as your next one in addition to giving you the bonus. If you're not, say so, and we won't, and you can choose to request a larger milestone whenever you like"
Post by Miyuki Wakahisa on Nov 22, 2015 11:44:00 GMT -5
Yes this is a definite thing.
If you're referring to the base GP thing being scaled to 1,500 for everyone, just post in your application and say "Hey, I just got XXX GP because of the base GP change" and just do with the GP as you feel fit.
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