Post by Fulfillment on Aug 30, 2015 19:54:49 GMT -5
Kireon-chan, can we use this topic then to brainstorm solutions? Solutions for us as players, solutions for staff? I don't see any of that really anywhere, and unless we want to hold off and let staff address this (which no one seems to want to wait for) I think we should be turning this conversation in a productive direction.
If my answer seems flawed, what else can we come up with?
This is going to turn into march again, where there's multiple topics over the same shit XD
Members policing themselves is a thing that happens. Can't force someone to write with anyone else and that's...really all there is to it. Whatever their reason. So I dunno. Like the rest of this it all seems kinda backlash-y and will likely never be anything. At least no more than it already was.
The Lord of Nightmares spoke to the God of Dreams, this small child or so he seemed, and bid him the question of his sins,
Post by Jian Oreachi on Aug 30, 2015 20:10:43 GMT -5
I mean, you're welcome for keeping it on topic. shifty eyes.
This is a real thing, it's already in play. People don't thread with jerks, you can formally say whose a jerk, so long as you're polite about it. If it turns to mob justice and witch hunts we have a problem, that's my fear, the ole tried and true slippery slope of people ostraicizing people in a community without clear guide on how and why they do it.
I mean that's what staff does, just more mechanically with chat bans and such, and we're coming up with guidelines for you guys to build on for exactly this purpose.
So, to say what is the better solution, we're working on it.
Post by Colin Arascain on Aug 30, 2015 20:24:46 GMT -5
I'm beginning to suspect that certain members of staff just don't know what the hell to do. As they say, and this is something I have a real problem with, never ascribe to malice what can be explained by stupidity.
It's probably not that staff is apathetic or corrupt, it's that the people currently tasked with handling interpersonal issues haven't a goddamn idea how to.
Post by Consequence on Aug 30, 2015 20:33:22 GMT -5
But like, I don't have an idea how to either.
So can we collectively discuss how to? Pooling our resources and all that?
Sometimes just letting staff do stuff means that good ideas from people who aren't on the admittedly tiny staff pool don't get heard.
Let's just brainstorm, there's no harm in it even if staff is coming up with their own solutions right now. Worst case scenario none of this is used. Best case scenario we give people ideas.
Well said, Paks.
There is no magic button that is pressed that imparts the wisdom to handle any task that Staff does. It takes time, knowledge, site experience, and real life experience. Those things don't grow over night.
It's an imperfect system run by imperfect people, and to think otherwise is to invite disappointment.
But we should absolutely talk about how to handle these things, collectively, as best as imperfect people can.
I like this and offered a couple suggestions in one of the other threads, I can bring it back here/reiterate further.
Things needing to be done:
- Work out the code of conduct. Use Cbox rules as an example, as cbox, for the most part, is really good about following them and self-policing.
- Work out the number of strikes/warnings/etc that fit the proverbial crime/offense. Some subject matter is not going to be weighed the same as another and should not be.
- These should not be unlimited warnings. Get a set number. Stick to it.
- Work out what is a temp site ban and permanent site ban worthy offense. Stick to it.
- Work out what you as staff need from players who are making a report. Do you need logs/documentation? (Yes.) Do you need them to try handling it on their own first? (Yes.) Figure it out and stick to it.
- Communication is key here and is the source of this problem alongside inaction. When receiving an issue, acknowledge the individual as having sent it via PM-- always have it via PM. And when you have taken steps to do something regarding the issue, keep the person updated of the steps taken. They know you've made an attempt, and they've had to do something on their end as well. Deal completed. Phase two begin.
Players, this is where we need to sit down and work out our way of self-policing and managing conflict.
I really like that idea Tok and Robert had, with the bot that sends PMs to Staff members.
I also like the idea of self-policing, but that only works for as long as everyone stays on point. It only takes two to tango after all.
What would be even better would be having members police themselves, a system for easy access to staff, and finally staff members well versed in handling Interpersonal issues. I don't know if that would mean training, or even just having interns watch and observe more experience staffers at work, but Colin has a point: Staff is only as good as it's weakest link. Improving how staff handles those issues can only be a good thing.
It does take two to tango; which is why we come up with methods for how to self-police, what that looks like, and help people understand that one person's boundaries may not be the same as someone else's, etc.
We know the problem, the problem is the dead horse being beaten like a pinata.
Let's stop beating it and start looking into necromancy.
Post by Kenshou Ine on Aug 30, 2015 22:21:18 GMT -5
Okay, so apparently I need to step in and do the one thing that hasn't been touched on. Bring a solution to the table. Also alcohol is involved so I may be less diplomatic, don't care.
So first things first, we have a code of conduct and it actually is good for the general thing. This shouldn't have to cover everything. Here is the location even.
Introduction These are the rules of Bleach Gotei that all members are expected to follow without exception. They all revolve around the goal of making Bleach Gotei as accessible and welcoming as possible and can be summed up in two simple ideas.
The first and most important is that we do not permit harassment of any kind. No matter your opinions on someone else or their lifestyle you are not permitted to lash out and harass them. To define harassment, we mean any behavior which impedes their ability to smoothly enjoy the community. It is also harassment if your behavior is so aggressive that you make a public venue, such as the chatbox, unwelcoming for all members. Also remember that we are an uncensored community and harassment over the stories written or the in-character actions of a player is also unacceptable.
The next is that plagiarism is unacceptable on Bleach Gotei, no matter the source or circumstances. You are not permitted to steal characters or writing from this website, our players, or other writers off of Bleach Gotei. Should it be discovered that you have plagiarized the work of another you will be asked to remove the offending content. Should you refuse it will be removed for you. If it is discovered that you have purposefully plagiarized another’s work there will be penalties as decided by the judgment of an appropriate member of Staff. Remember that while it is perfectly fine to make things that are mechanically identical to something else in our game, it is not okay to copy the technique or power of another player verbatim.
A simple thing to remember is that we are a community that expects the highest level of maturity from our members. We come from a diverse set of backgrounds and circumstances and, despite that, we seek to come together with the goal of telling stories and having fun. Any behavior that impedes that will not be permitted in our community. Acquit yourself to these standards and you will have nothing to worry about.
Now onto how do we handle warnings and the like, I actually can go into depth on this due to prior experience and knowing how warning points work here. Mind you this is what I remember so some information may be not 100% right, but most of it will be.
Warning points can be used and amazingly you can force said person getting warned to accept a message you attach before they are allowed to post again. This means they have no excuses like, but I didn't know. No you didn't read it and we can't help you being a dumb fuck.
Also I'm listening to the "it is a mystery" on a 10 hour loop while writing this, not important just a note.
A little more about points, it's a scale of 0 to 10. 0 is good, 10 is you probably getting banned. I believe you can set points to fall off after X amount of time. Now this isn't an as I got them, it's based on the last warning point I believe. I don't know if it can be adjusted so more points take longer or what not. That needs looking into.
You can even set things like post mod and banning to happen automatically at certain levels of points. 10 points, BANHAMMER OF THE GODS.
Now you can set up pre-made warning things that make it super easy to assign warning points and what not based on the situation, being racist 10 points for your stupid bigot ass. Also there is an option for other where some can fill it all out on the spot and make a judgment call.
Warning points should be in use, it's also good because it's visible to staff and not members, you fucking up isn't going to be super obvious. It gives a chance to reform, because everyone fucks up and you shouldn't have to worry about it if you try to do the right thing and reform. Plus any staff member can click and see who assigned the points and when and why. It keeps a track record on your profile they can see.
Now that's the warning side of things, which will help us keep track beyond member files and makes sure the member knows when they done goof. Member files are still important because we want a place to discuss it for staff. Sometimes something might not be as it seems and only warrants less or maybe more. Repeat offender of being a possum fucker should not be tolerated.
Of course the first step is to try and work it out with the two parties to win win win as Michael Scott would put it.
Now obviously staff has lost the trust of a lot of people on site that even now they won't change what has happened. I don't have much of a solution for this accept if you go to staff and nothing happens my door is open and I have no problem burning down Takua's house, I will give Kire ample time to pack and move out first. Seriously though you can come to me and I will probably have angry words for staff members. Especially since this is like their shot at redemption, it'd be bad to fuck it up.
My personal opinion on perma bans. I hate them and honestly I think it should be rarely used. It made me feel like shit for quite some time after having done it to a few people.
I feel like I might have missed something, so I reserve the right to edit this post.
Communication is the source of the problem all around. You have a problem with me then you tell me and you do it like an adult, not some pissy kid. It's not a hard thing to do. Moodiness or other such shit shouldn't factor into it and if you think they do you need to sit your ass down and reevaluate your actions. More so if you expect to be taken seriously when speaking to someone else about them. You own up to fucking up and you take the consequences of them. There's a surprising amount of hostility that can be diverted with a simple apology.
Players need to own up to their own issues and how they interact with one another. If you do nothing to try and settle the issue then you are part of it. Staff is meant to be there to help settle it without bias if it can't be done between you. THEIR job is to diffuse situations, which again is surprisingly easy without needing to jump right to kicking, bans, and threats. You escalate as needed. You don't hide posts because they MIGHT be a problem. You hide them because they shitpost and derail, which is not needed in serious discussions, or because they've caused conflict that has no value in it except satisfying tempers. You can disagree with someone intensely and still get constructive things out of it. Like a middle ground. Consult members about issues as a whole, use the CB as a tool when you need to because you get immediate and public responses.
Sekai nails down anything guideline wise. Don't wait for someone to be bluntly smacking you in the face to take heed of it
The Lord of Nightmares spoke to the God of Dreams, this small child or so he seemed, and bid him the question of his sins,